Oz Report
topic: Crestline XC Classic 2021 (7 articles)
2021 Crestline XC Classic⁣ Live Tracking »
Why did it suck so bad on Airtribune?
Crestline XC Classic 2021|Jamie Shelden
«Jamie Shelden» asked Brett at Airtribune:
I wonder if you were able to look into the trackers we were using last weekend? We had a lot of issues with them, but they were strange ones. On each of the three days of the event, Airtribune showed incorrect and inconsistent information. For example, on day one, for the entire task all pilots were listed as “landed”, despite the “distance to goal” decreasing as they flew.
On day three, the two leading pilots showed at the bottom of the leader board as if they hadn’t left the start for the entire task. However, when you clicked on the track for either of those pilots, you could see that they were flying the course. By the time I thought to actually check their tracks, it showed their breadcrumb trails for the entire course, hitting all the waypoints, etc., but at the same time, it still showed them in last place on the leader board. So, while the trackers seemed to work ok for scoring purposes, they were kind of useless for spectator or monitoring purposes. Any thoughts on what went wrong or how we can fix this? We’re hoping to run the same event again in September, but I want to be sure the trackers will work properly before we commit to using them again.
Brett responds:
I just watched the replay, and it all looks correct to me. Zac and Bruce are showing as in goal.
The fact that the trackers worked for the scoring shows that there is nothing wrong with the trackers. The problem is with Airtribune, and how a leader board is created.
Leader boards are only an indication. They will never be accurate. Ever. You need to understand how the technology works to see why.
Firstly, the trackers are just mobile phones. They only work when they have phone signal. At cloudbase they rarely work. To help with this, Flymaster add a 4 minute delay before releasing the data, to give the trackers a chance to forward the data, if the pilot re-acquires signal in the meantime. Airtribune then adds a further 2 minutes, for a similar issue, but also related to data being taken from multiple sources and needing mixing. So everything is delayed by 6 minutes. (Unless you use XCguide, where things are live. But that is for organisers to run safety, not for spectators.)
Next you have the issue of scoring formulas. Airtribune cannot hope to replicate all the formulas. And the very first one it falls foul of is the tolerance. What tolerance did the scoring software have? 0.5%? So maybe those two pilots jumped the gun. Scoring would allow this if it is within the tolerance, Airtribune would not as it has no tolerencing. You could teach Airtribune this by altering the cylinder sizes, but that requires maths. But in this instance, I don't think it was that. But there are numerous other reasons why it could have failed in the moment. Maybe Airtribune received data that indicated they had taken off, then landed, then taken off again. Maybe the trackers were still obtaining GPS lock. Hard to say without some detailed research. But the data is not available to me to do that any more because after the scoring was done, the scorer, rightly, uploaded the Scored tracklogs to Airtribune, as created by the Scoring software (FScomp?). This is the correct thing to do because the Scoring software cleans up the tracks, and clips them to only the relevant lengths, ie from SSS to LandByTime/Goal/Landing. When these are uploaded to Airtribune, post task, then Airtribune removes the live data and puts the scored data in its place and recreates the replay. In this case, it seems to have resolved whatever the issue is/was.
Next year we plan on integrating the new Live Scoring system, Airscore or similar, so this will become a whole lot better. For the moment, I can't hope to invest the time that it takes to make Airtribune a live scoring system. This is why for my own events I rely on the PWC's Leader board, as Ulric created an excellent output from the scoring system to create a live leader board that is truly live (it even uses a back door to the Flymaster server to bypass the 6 minute data delays). But this isn't something we can recommend as it also needs a lot of management.
So for the moment, all I can say is the Trackers appear to have worked perfect. Airtribune handled it as best it could, and the uploading of the tracks after the task created the correct replay.
What you can do, to help reduce the clutter from multiple servers trying to process and display live data is give a link to the Flymaster leaderboard instead of the Airtribune one. It often does a little better as it works exclusively from the trackers, whereas Airtribune also refers to iOS, Android, Spots etc, and mixes that data in. It helps in some places, but can cause problems in other areas.
I hope there is something in that to help.
My response:
Do not use Airtribune for Live Tracking. The problem here is that Jamie wasn't able to connect the FlyMaster trackers with the FlyMaster Live Tracking web site. I am unaware of what the problem was for her, but have again pointed out that this is the solution.
Use Airtribune for replay (Not Live Tracking) as the FlyMaster tracking web site is terrible for replay.
Jamie has an iPhone, so she is not familiar with XCGuide. XCGuide is by far the best app to use if you are the meet director and want to keep track of your pilots during the task.
We never use the Leader Board for the reasons that Brett points out.
Setting up Live Tracking for a competition is not a trivial exercise and I'm sure that it was not clear to Jamie that Airtribune is not to be used for Live Tracking, but using Airtribune to set the trackers to each pilot is an immense help in scoring.
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2 topics in this article: Crestline XC Classic 2021, Jamie Shelden
Jamie Shelden Rebuts my Article on the 2021 Crestline XC Classic
Had a great time
Jamie Shelden|Crestline XC Classic 2021
https://OzReport.com/1622565472
«Jamie Shelden» writes:
Well, I’m really sorry to hear you didn’t enjoy the Crestline XC Classic. Those of us who were actually there, very much did enjoy it, so much so that we will likely do it again in September. With the tremendous support and sponsorship of the Crestline Soaring Society, Cross Country Ranch and Hangar 24 Brewery, we all thought it was a great time…great enough to do again soon. Of course, conditions were not as good as any of us would have hoped for, but as you know, we can’t control the weather and we can’t even always count on an incredibly consistent flying site to deliver perfect weather. We could only work with what we were given and what we were given was challenging conditions that tested different flying skills than you are probably accustomed to.
As for the trackers, I’m trying to find out from Airtribune what went wrong with them. I know the cell coverage in that area isn’t fantastic, but that doesn’t account for the strange inaccuracies and inconsistencies of the Leader board and other aspects of the tracking interface we all saw on Airtribune.
Just for your amusement, I’ve attached a really cool photo of Rob & Diane McKenzie.Rob was the launch director at the Crestline XC Classic. This is a fun shot of them doing a tandem above the “Regionals” launch. The reason they call is “Regionals” is because for years they held regional competitions there - that’s where we got the Crestline XC Classic name from.
Finally, I have been on the fence about organizing the Santa Cruz Flats Race again this year. No one knows better than you what a huge and time consuming job it is to organize hang gliding competitions that are not just unremunerated, but often end up costing me money. As for your comment “maybe this is why we don’t have competitions in the west anymore”, I have to say that the lack of competitions in the west and elsewhere is not the result of a weekend of less than ideal weather conditions at Crestline. It could more likely be the result of stories like the one you just published. With respect to the Santa Cruz Flats Race, you may have just tipped the scales for me.
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2 topics in this article: Jamie Shelden, Crestline XC Classic 2021
2021 Crestline XC Classic »
A fishbowl of frustration
competition|Crestline XC Classic 2021
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/results
First, the live tracking was anything but live. It not only barely worked but also gave a distorted picture of what was actually happening. The trackers have been fantastic in other competitions and perhaps they gave the scorekeeper the results that allowed them to score so quickly. That seems to be the case.
It is not at all clear why the trackers behaved so poorly in San Bernardino. It make have something to do with the phone system. It may be the mountains. The trackers only work on a G3 system, not G2, nor G4.
Second, the conditions absolutely sucked. I don't recall if the pilots ever got above the Crestline launch altitude. No one at goal on the last two days and only a few on the first day. This despite the statement in the web site blog, "It’s looking like a classic Crestline day - really nice conditions for racing…." Well if that is a classic Crestline day, there is no good reason to go there.
I felt that the conditions in Florida for the competition this year were poor, but nothing like this.
Maybe this is why we don't have competitions in the West any more, except in Casa Grande.
It was great to see a few pilots like Zac, Bruce, and Owen, hang in there when the lift was so very poor. But like a baseball game that is a no hitter, it is only a pleasure for those who like that sort of thing.
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2 topics in this article: competition, Crestline XC Classic 2021
2021 Crestline XC Classic, last day »
Launching from Crestline
Butch Peachy|competition|Crestline XC Classic 2021|Gary Anderson|Jason Boehm|Jeff Chipman|Moyes Litespeed RX|Owen Morse|Sara Weaver|Wills Wing T3|Zac Majors
https://airtribune.com/play/5075/2d
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/blog__day_3
Looks to be a good day with a 73 km task.
Results:
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/results
Task 3:
# | Name | Glider | Distance | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Bruce Barmakian | Aeros Combat-C 12.7 | 41.11 | 895.6 |
2 | Zac Majors | Wills WINGT3 144 | 41.17 | 893.6 |
3 | Butch Peachy | Moyes-RX 3.5/S4 | 40.60 | 874.7 |
4 | Owen Morse | Wills Wing T3 154 | 33.17 | 709.0 |
5 | Gavin Fridlund | Ozone X-Apls | 29.90 | 660.7 |
6 | Jeff Chipman | Moyes Litespeed RX 3.5 | 28.43 | 635.8 |
7 | Gary Anderson | Wills Wing T3 144 | 26.89 | 599.5 |
8 | Jason Boehm | Wills Wing T3 | 26.77 | 598.6 |
9 | Kenneth Andrews | Wills Wing T2C-144 | 26.13 | 578.9 |
10 | Sara Weaver | Wills Wing SPORT3 135 | 24.53 | 530.2 |
Final:
# | Name | Glider | Total |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Zac Majors | Wills WINGT3 144 | 2250 |
2 | Bruce Barmakian | Aeros Combat-C 12.7 | 1949 |
3 | Owen Morse | Wills Wing T3 154 | 1610 |
4 | Gavin Fridlund | Ozone X-Apls | 1444 |
5 | Kenneth Andrews | Wills Wing T2C-144 | 1433 |
6 | Gary Anderson | Wills Wing T3 144 | 1243 |
7 | Sara Weaver | Wills Wing SPORT3 135 | 1166 |
8 | Butch Peachy | Moyes-RX 3.5/S4 | 1096 |
9 | Jason Boehm | Wills Wing T3 | 1076 |
10 | Jeff Chipman | Moyes Litespeed RX 3.5 | 835 |
11 topics in this article: Butch Peachy, competition, Crestline XC Classic 2021, Gary Anderson, Jason Boehm, Jeff Chipman, Moyes Litespeed RX, Owen Morse, Sara Weaver, Wills Wing T3, Zac Majors
2021 Crestline XC Classic, day 2 »
Like day one
Butch Peachy|competition|Crestline XC Classic 2021|Gary Anderson|Jason Boehm|Jeff Chipman|Jeff Galvin|Moyes Litespeed RX|Owen Morse|PG|Sara Weaver|Wills Wing T3|Zac Majors
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/blog__day_2
Very weak conditions. Terrible GPS tracking. Don't know what is with the trackers.
Zac won the day but he was not too far ahead of Gavin Fridlund, flying a paraglider in second place. Given that Zac was averaging about 13 mph, this is a perfect competition for a paraglider pilot.
Results:
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/results
Task 2:
# | Name | Glider | Distance | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Zac Majors | Wills WINGT3 144 | 41.47 | 363.8 |
2 | Gavin Fridlund | Ozone X-Apls | 39.85 | 348.3 |
3 | Butch Peachy | Moyes-RX 3.5/S4 | 16.15 | 220.8 |
4 | Owen Morse | Wills Wing T3 154 | 16.13 | 220.7 |
5 | Jeff Chipman | Moyes Litespeed RX 3.5 | 13.39 | 199.5 |
6 | Kenneth Andrews | Wills Wing T2C-144 | 13.13 | 197.2 |
7 | Jason Glade | Wills Wing Sport 3 155 | 11.10 | 174.4 |
8 | Jason Boehm | Wills Wing T3 | 7.10 | 126.5 |
9 | Edward Wiggins | Wills Wing-T2C | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Jeff Galvin | Moyes Litespeed S 4.5 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Nathan Hallahan | Moyes Gecko 155 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Gary Anderson | Wills Wing T3 144 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Sara Weaver | Wills Wing SPORT3 135 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Jon Irlbeck | Wills Wing-Sport 2 155 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Bruce Barmakian | Aeros Combat-C 12.7 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
9 | Mitchell Mcaleer | Icaro 13.7 MR700 2002 | 5.00 | 104.4 |
Cumulative:
Name | Glider | Total | |
---|---|---|---|
1 | Zac Majors | Wills WINGT3 144 | 1356 |
2 | Bruce Barmakian | Aeros Combat-C 12.7 | 1053 |
3 | Owen Morse | Wills Wing T3 154 | 901 |
4 | Kenneth Andrews | Wills Wing T2C-144 | 854 |
5 | Gavin Fridlund | Ozone X-Apls | 783 |
6 | Gary Anderson | Wills Wing T3 144 | 644 |
7 | Sara Weaver | Wills Wing SPORT3 135 | 636 |
8 | Jason Glade | Wills Wing Sport 3 155 | 482 |
9 | Jason Boehm | Wills Wing T3 | 477 |
10 | Jeff Galvin | Moyes Litespeed S 4.5 | 412 |
13 topics in this article: Butch Peachy, competition, Crestline XC Classic 2021, Gary Anderson, Jason Boehm, Jeff Chipman, Jeff Galvin, Moyes Litespeed RX, Owen Morse, PG, Sara Weaver, Wills Wing T3, Zac Majors
2021 Crestline XC Classic⁣ Not Exactly Classic »
Were there previous Classics?
competition|Crestline XC Classic 2021|Gary Anderson|Owen Morse|PG|Sara Weaver|Wills Wing T3|Zac Majors
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/info/details
https://airtribune.com/play/5068/2d
Three at goal:
1 | Z. Majors (1) | 01:24:47 |
2 | O. Morse (22) | 02:02:15 |
3 | K. Andrews (25) | 02:02:28 |
https://airtribune.com/crestline-xc-classic/results/task5068/day/class-1-open
Kingposted and paraglider in the mix at goal.
# | Name | Glider | Time | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Zac Majors | Wills WINGT3 144 | 01:24:47 | 992.4 |
2 | Bruce Barmakian | Aeros Combat-C 12.7 | 01:25:47 | 948.5 |
3 | Owen Morse | Wills Wing T3 154 | 02:02:14 | 680.3 |
4 | Kenneth Andrews | Wills Wing T2C-144 | 02:02:30 | 656.9 |
5 | Gary Anderson | Wills Wing T3 144 | 02:12:37 | 539.1 |
6 | Sara Weaver | Wills Wing SPORT3 135 | 02:19:31 | 531.7 |
7 | Gavin Fridlund | Ozone X-Apls | 02:33:11 | 434.9 |
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8 topics in this article: competition, Crestline XC Classic 2021, Gary Anderson, Owen Morse, PG, Sara Weaver, Wills Wing T3, Zac Majors
2021 Crestline XC Classic⁣ Hang Gliding Competition »
How can it be a classic if it is the first one?
CIVL|Crestline XC Classic 2021|USHPA|World Pilot Ranking Scheme
https://crestlinesoaring.org/topic/crestline-xc-classic-hang-gliding-competition/
Come join us for this first USHPA sanctioned race-to-goal hang gliding competition at Crestline, California! This will be a CIVL category 2 competition with both WPRS and NTSS points. We’re planning for three days of racing at this legendary Southern California site on Saturday, Sunday and Monday May 29-31, 2021.
Discuss "2021 Crestline XC Classic⁣ Hang Gliding Competition" at the Oz Report forum link»
4 topics in this article: CIVL, Crestline XC Classic 2021, USHPA, World Pilot Ranking Scheme
20 sub-topics in: Crestline XC Classic 2021
Bruce Barmakian, Butch Peachy, Douglas Hale, Edward Wiggins, Gary Anderson, Gavin Fridlund, Jason Boehm, Jason Glade, Jeff Chipman, Jeff Galvin, Jon Irlbeck, Kenneth Andrews, Kevin Kernohan, Mitchell "Mitch" McAleer, Nathan Hallahan, Owen Morse, Phillip "Phill" Bloom, Sara Weaver, Spencer Balona, Zac Majors