Maybe Attila doesn't think the FTV is all that bad after all.Canungra, Australia)

http://www.triptera.com.au/canungra/classic2007/results_page.htm

Steve Moyes is third:

Place	Name	Glider	Nation	Total
1	DURAND, Jon Jnr	Moyes Litespeed RS 3.5	AUS	4035
2	BERTOK, Attila	Moyes Litespeed S 5	HUN	4028
3	MOYES, Steve	Moyes Litespeed RS 4	AUS	4010
4	SEIB, David	Moyes Litespeed RS 4	AUS	3810
5	BARRETT, Scott	Airborne Climax C4 13.5	AUS	3610
6	MACLEOD, Glen	Moyes Litespeed S 4.5	AUS	3521
7	BLENKINSOP, Steve	Moyes Litespeed S 4	AUS	3516
8	SCHWEIGERSHAUSEN, Corinna	Moyes Litespeed S 3.5	DEU	3360
9	TUNBRIDGE, Cameron	Airborne Climax C4 14	AUS	3354
10	SCHRODER, Phil	Airborne Climax C4 13.5	AUS	3277
11	MAJORS, Zac	Moyes Litespeed RS 4	USA	3042

Attila won the last two days after falling down on the third day. But that day got thrown out (essentially) (http://www.triptera.com.au/canungra/classic2007/ftv_report.html). See here for an explanation: http://www.triptera.com.au/canungra/gap/ftv.html. Jonny, Attila and Steve were all very close.

Scott Barrett did well on the last two days with a second and a third. Zac from the US third on the third day with Attila fell down. Steve Blenkinsop and Dave Seib were the only ones to make goal on day four.

On day five Andrew Carswell left "early" and got all the arrival points. I wonder what the story was there.

The story there was that if you were not in a top 20 spot on the combined daily scores, you could strat the course whenever you wanted, with 1 second start time intervals. Andrew got away and into better conditions on course early, as did most other pilots outside of the top20 and who went in the alternate launch window.

Very interesting.

Seems like Andrew took away points (perhaps unfairly) that Attila could have used to win the meet.

Right?

- ---- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Bertok" <bertok>
To: "Davis Straub" <davis> Cc: "Gerolf Heinrichs" <gerolfontour>; "jon durand" <jonnyjnr80>; "Scott Barrett" <ScottB>; "Tim Cummings" <tim> Sent: Monday,

October 22, 2007 1:24 AM Subject: Re: Early start at Canungra?

Davis,

I totally agree with you. I was most disappointed not to pocket 1000 points, instead I got 930. I know I am a greedy little bastard when it comes to the scores I am getting. I won the day (5th flown, task 7), but still… I told my concern to Tim, but he doesn't seem to understand the unfairness of it. Unfair it is, because a group of pilots confined to take a start gate and yet the pilots who don't have to do this benefit. It is already a bit too friendly to let guys go anytime they want. Now they give them extra bonus for not being able to or wanting to hang around until the real starts. I can't belive that everytime there is a comp in Australia we should have to go through these pretty obvious things. Let alone we used FTV again because two people supporting it out of the whole crowd, Lenny and Tim. And it is going to be this way as long as they are 2/3 of the Australian competition comitee and they clearly NOT representing the opinion of their fellow pilots. And they use FTV for team selection. Can you understand this?

Best Regards Attila

Davis Straub wrote:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9922

Seems to me that the early start should have been allowed, but the flight time interval moved back to the first start time. Otherwise the pilots who go way early steal all the arrival points (if they get to goal), but don't provide any help for the guys behind them. This does not seem to be in the spirit of the OzGAP 2005 scoring system.

I have no problem with letting the no so competitive guys go at their own pace and start time. But they shouldn't be allowed to screw everyone else. The least you can do is move their start time (and their whole flight interval) to the first start time.

Davis Straub
http://ozreport.com
http://ozreport.com/worldrecordholder.php
http://ozreport.com/location.php
Santa Barbara, CA, USA

I agree that it was slightly unfair to the top 20 pilots, but it was a situation where a non top 20 pilot had one of the fastest times of the day and so should be rewarded for his effort. At Forbes, where the depth of talent is much greater than Canungra, we have a correction we apply by adjusting the finish times of the first arriving pilot so that he would have the same finish time as the first pilot taking one of the start gates available to the top twenty pilots. However, if Attila was so concerned about arrival points at Canungra where he knew the rules, he could have taken an earlier start gate.

FTV for team selection: this was an idea strongly supported by Gerolf, so maybe he can explain to Attila why it is a good idea.

FTV for competition scoring: at Forbes last year a few top pilots complained that it hadn't been trialled long enough in the less important competitions so we agreed to not use it for the Australian AAA competitions last season. This year, after no additional competitions have used it for scoring, some of the top pilots are complaining that we have been trialling it too long and it should be dropped.

My conclusion from the trials is that it only aids the very top pilots. If they don't want it, I am very happy not to use it for scoring competitions. Without FTV, the slower pilots have a chance to be consistent and beat the guns. I think the guns may not be realising what they are losing as FTV stops being used. Attila certainly wouldn't have had any chance of challenging Jon Durand jnr at Canungra after Attila's poor start.

Tim Cummings
HGFA Competitions Committee

Let's separate the two issues. I have no problem with FTV.

Tim agrees that it was unfair to not shift back Andrew's start time to the first start clock (or similar remedy).

Tim, did you try scoring that day without Andrew or with Andrew's time moved forward to the first start time?

My question is did Andrew's time make a big difference for Attila's score (and Jonny's) on that day? Would it have changed the outcome of the meet?

http://www.triptera.com.au/canungra/classic2007/open_day_7.htm

Place Name Sponsor Glider Nation Start Finish Time km/h km P km P Dep. P km/h P Arr. Total

1 BERTOK, Attila, 2 Moyes Litespeed S 5 HUN 12:00:00 15:01:04 03:01:04 43.04 131.9 534.8 0.0 348.9 46.7 930

2 CARSWELL, Andrew, 28 Airborne Climax C2 13 AUS 11:14:04 14:37:29 03:23:25 38.32 131.9 534.8 0.0 223.9 116.3 875

3 BARRETT, Scott, 5 Airborne Climax C4 13.5 AUS 12:20:00 15:34:02 03:14:02 40.17 131.9 534.8 0.0 261.9 6.0 803

4 DURAND, Jon Jnr, 1 Moyes Litespeed RS 3.5 AUS 12:20:00 15:38:11 03:18:11 39.33 131.9 534.8 0.0 244.3 4.0 783

…but it was a situation where a non top 20 pilot had one of the fastest times of the day and so should be rewarded for his effort.

I agree. He had the eighth fastest time and he should be rewarded with about eighth place, or perhaps a little better. You should move his time to the first start time (what was it, 11:20 or 11:40?) and see just what his just reward is.

At Forbes, where the depth of talent is much greater than Canungra, we have a correction we apply by adjusting the finish times of the first arriving pilot so that he would have the same finish time as the first pilot taking one of the start gates available to the top twenty pilots.

Well that's one way to do, and there doesn't seem to be a reason not to do that at this competition, or something similar.

However, if Attila was so concerned about arrival points at Canungra where he knew the rules, he could have taken an earlier start gate.

How much earlier could he have gone?

It's fine to know the rules, but it's also fine to have reasonably consistent and fair rules. I've never heard of using this rule. In all my years of flying in Oz and other places where we use GAP and Oz GAP, and we allow early starts, we do something to assure that all pilots have an equal chance, by at least shifting the start times of those pilots that leave before the first start time back to at least that time. Otherwise you should allow everyone to start early if they want.

I think that you made a mistake. I don't think that you want the lower finishing pilots to decide the outcome of the contest. Do you?

This just makes it more difficult for those of us who wish to be kind to the lower ranks to give them a fair shot.

I understand Attila’s and your arguments and on the face of it I agree, sliding Andrew’s time back and giving him the speed points but not the arrival points is probably a fair idea.

My understanding of letting the average pilots go first is to encourage us average (slow) pilots to get on course as early as possible. In most cases the top pilots mow us down in no time. There is the rare occasion when the ‘Tortoise’ gets away (no offence Andrew). Can we not live with this as part of chance in Hang Gliding, there is no perfect system?

“

This just makes it more difficult for those of us who wish to be kind to the lower ranks to give them a fair shot”

Davis, the ‘lower ranks” are usually the ones who organize, substantially fund and just participate to make a comp successful and hopefully a spectacle. It’s terrific to turn up to Beechmont and see 60-70 gliders climbing out. Would this be as good if only the top 5-10 with any chance of winning turn up? Maybe we are being “kind” to organize and help fund these events for the top pilots to have the platform to show us there skills. We all benefit from competitions, and there is no totally fair system

Lunching 60-70 pilots off a hill with a limited window to get away can never be perfect. Only big Tow comps with lots of tugs seems to be a fair way to get pilots in the air more fairly.

“How much earlier could he have gone?”

I believe the first start gate was 11:40, I do not know if Attila had launched by then. This comp is an ordered launch and on the day I think Attila was off 10 or so places before Jonny, does this give him an advantage over the other top pilots and a chance to get away before them? Possibly, but that is the luck involved with this sport.